#11 TreasureDAO | John Patten - Decentralised NFT Ecosystem, New Metaverses & $MAGIC

00:03

Hello everyone. Welcome to another Poolside with Polkastarter episode where we come together to share knowledge and experiences with the community from all the top web three projects in the space in a very informal and conversational way. As always, we're really excited about the guest that we have. I think this one is going to be a really interesting conversation because there are so many different layers to the topics we're going to cover today. So I'm really personally stoked. Before I introduce you to our special guests. Just want to remind everyone that as always, for the lucky early few of you that managed to get your hands on our OATs for the episode, you can wait until the end of the episode where we'll give you the secret code and then you can proceed to claim it from the pinned Tweet. With that out of the way, John, welcome to the episode. Thanks for having me. Before, I have an intro, I don't like doing them because I feel like I never do the guests justice. So I want you to start off by just telling me a bit more about what TreasureDAO is. But maybe before we do that, it's let's talk about John Patten himself, right the co-founder and innovation lead of TreasureDAO. Tell me a bit more about yourself and then we'll dive in.

01:06

Yeah, co founded Treasure last fall. Was someone named Garth And I've worked in crypto for the last couple of years. Full time I work at Osmosis, which is a cosmos based AMM. I work on NFTs there. And before this, I was just a writer in defy for a few years and a trader. Yeah, but now I'm now on NFTs in the Metaverse.

01:39

Nice. So then with that, with that intro, I think it's key to understand what is treasured, because there's so many things, I think to uncover in today's episode. So I want to start off by maybe just give me a quick intro about what treasure is and what is TreasureDAO? And what's the universe all about?

01:57

Yeah, so treasure is a decentralized network of games and communities built around a single token. So the easiest way to think about it would be if there's a game that someone builds, and then they create a token for it similar to an arcade token, we wanted to do the opposite, where we wanted to create a token where a large number of communities could come together and write a story around it, and build games and narratives around the missions of it. So we started with the token as a way to build a community. And the idea is that most most games and Metaverse they really struggle to reach a point of either liquidity or adoption, where the token model is sustainable. And if we use the single token to anchor an entire ecosystem, then it would function like a video game console where you know, particular titles or you know, cartridges, you can think of them as some of them will outright fail, they'll become outdated. But the publisher itself continues. And that's what treasure is, we're building large decentralized network using our magic token, and magic functions, and a lot of ways in the ecosystem primarily through the marketplace where things are transacted game items and characters are transacted in this magic token, and then we take royalties in that and distribute them, not to ourselves, but to new builders to bring in new projects, so that they can start distributing magic to their players. The team can have some skin in the game, and feel like they own this ecosystem along with the community. And, yeah, so magic is it's an infrastructure token. And so far as you know, we've started with the marketplace, but we're now building out a lot more defy tooling that we want other game builders to be able to use. But it's also you know, the thing that sits underneath all these worlds in that when you play the game, the world you're inside, is powered by magic.

04:14

I love the sound of that. I think that's genius marketing there. Um, let me start maybe from the you know, builders perspective. So in terms of like helping and providing tools for people that are building essentially how does that look like for me for example, if I'm, you know, Game Dev, or if I'm a developer in general, that's looking to launch something using your tech what does that look like for me?

04:35

Yeah, so it's really simple right now and just to give some context like to the viewers, we're still younger than a year old and we launched is a fair launch. freemen project. Last fall we just gave away. Initially, they were it was a loot derivatives. We gave away NFT's that looked like loot cards, but with treasures on them And then we did the magic token. And we also distributed that for free, along with all of our NFT's, legions and small brains. So we've just been really busy building the last year, we built a marketplace on arbitrage. That's done over 300 million in volume. The magic token has done over a billion dollars in volume. And we've just been focused on creating our core intellectual property so to speak, we're CC zero, which means that anyone can can use these things because we really want the community to build a Metaverse with us and make it a large story. But so over the last year, we've just been focused on building out the infrastructure. So sort of like our core games. And, you know, franchises if you will. And now we're focused on integrating more. So if you're a game builder, like the beacon, or knights of ether, and these are like, I'm just naming tales of Illyria. These are really good ones that are in ecosystem right now. The principal advantage for you right now is that you can join a much larger community and joining treasure like building quote unquote, on top of treasure, starts with integrating the magic token in some meaningful way into the game or metaphor, Metaverse, you're producing, so you know, the players interact with it. Even if it's not a game, it's just a Metaverse, then the world is, you know, centered around it. And the way our world is centered around resources and capital also, it's organized around it. So you can use these economic resources as a way to link into the larger story. And then from there, you can be listed on our marketplace alongside all these other projects. So treasure sort of, you know, we have incredibly viral and strong community. That's the that's the reason for our success was the number of people who responded to this narrative of building the metaverse together, and they were really vocal and also just, you know, builders themselves, a lot of people in the community. So the advantage to someone else is you build a game for two or three years, you're not sure it's going to have product market fit, you could fall flat on your face. And you know, in the traditional gaming world, you go and do you find a video game publisher to make sure that you can have PMF have a community and that you'll get some recognition or, but in web three, we didn't want to recreate just the walled garden of like a video game publisher that kind of exploits the artists and the creators through unfair royalties and revenues, you know, you keep your you keep half of your revenue, and the marketplace and the other half goes to the Dow not not us or a company, there is no company, it's just, it's just the community governed by tokens. So you can come in with your product, join this very large and growing community, and just quickly become integrated. And in the future, the advantage will become much more complex, we've scaled up from, you know, initially, we were just volunteers I, I started this with one friend. And then it was about a dozen of us volunteering for six months. But now it's a full time team of 30 people. So what we can build as much more sophisticated. So moving forward, other builders not only will be able to link in just using the magic token, they'll have a lot of tooling at the NFT level. So pre made. Yeah, like, you can create NFTS similar to our standards. And then there's very, very interesting things you can do there. So small brains is an NFT that we have, the way it works is a small brain, when you stake it, it's IQ goes up and at its head gets larger. So it's been controlled by the school smart contract, we call it school. But in theory, you know, like lots of people from lots of worlds could wink into the same school contract, it wouldn't be IQ could be power, or some some type of strength unique to their character. So now we can build decentralized immutable RPGs, where communities are opting into these on chain game mechanisms, because that's what treasure is, is like at the deepest level, on chain, there's this economy with specific loops that communities engage in and people can opt in to them. So you know, you'll be able to create your NFTS similar to ours, that interact with ours. And then the one year vision is that

09:23

this will have been two years after launches, we'll have our own chain, and it will have extremely high throughput. And hopefully we're gonna even permission the chain so that the Dow has to vote on which games go on there. So it could be you know, even faster than polygon and virtually free to the user. So builders will just be able to join what resembles a video game platform and publisher right off the bat. And yeah, we can Yeah, the organization supports their growth has been part of the ecosystem.

10:00

I think you've touched on a lot of really great points there. And I don't want to start kind of picking at each of them. But let me start with, I guess the, the one that stands out the most to me at least, which is the fact that this started, obviously, as a, you know, as a community project, right? Like this was just open source like, let's, let's get people in, let's build this with the community. And now it's a kind of into a full time team and still run it with the community. I'm just wondering, in terms of that transition, and the challenges that obviously come with it, whether it's community governance, whether it's scaling issues, etc, etc. Like, could you talk to us a bit more about that?

10:33

Yeah, there's there's a lot of issues organizations face and crypto is they try and scale and I think that we're the largest, true Dow in NFTs and probably one of the largest in crypto, that there's no LLC that holds our intellectual property. There are no revenue streams to either the team members or equity holders outside of the token, everyone from the team to the community to the investors who did OTC deals to provide runway to the team are all receiving the same share of this organization based on their token. So achieving decentralization, that scale is very, very hard. My co founder Garp puts a lot of work along with our we have an in house economist, PETA, we're moving away from this one token, one vote model, just because we saw a defy how this kind of results in plutocracy. And, you know, you end up just kind of atrophying as an organization, if a person with great insights, doesn't have enough money to meaningfully contribute governance, they tend to just fall out. So not only is it just controlled by the wealthiest, but the wealthiest tend to be the most apathetic and, you know, least interested in innovation, because they're just looking for passive yield for the most part. So we're really trying to avoid that that's like a large scale problem that a lot of decentralized projects have dealt with as they scaled and we deal with it. Even more. So because there is no entity outside of the Dow. It's just the community running this project. But there's also like, just a, you know, there's practical challenges. My co founders in Australia, we've never met in real life, I had never met any of the team. Except the person I started it with, because we knew each other from school lived in the same town. I hadn't met any of these people until NFT. NYC and we met in person, but you know, we've put blood sweat and tears into this project. So there's timezone problems. Communication ism, is the thing that we're very cognizant of, like, if you look across crypto, most successful teams tend to be 10 people or less. And then when they get into the dozens, they start fossilized thing. They I don't know why it happens. I just And now attuned to seeing this where, you know, when defi protocols got large enough to be kind of institutionalized, they stopped innovating. Last cycle. They thought they had product market fit and we're barreling down a path only to realize that they didn't. So I think we and like other dowels that have observed this happening in crypto are, yeah, we're very cognizant of this. And we use, like, frequent communication about our strategy, reading groups to see innovative things that are happening just to make sure that, you know, we had to professionalize at a certain point, but that can't come at the cost of being able to like nimbly and quickly adapt to changing industry trends. Were in this industry, you know, Game Changing innovation that requires you to rework a lot of what you did happens on like a quarter or by quarterly basis.

14:01

Yeah, I think that's definitely intriguing. And I mean, those those make sense. And obviously, you when you're still a small team, it's super agile, obviously, as more people kind of get in it becomes a bit harder. But I want to touch on another point that you kind of mentioned earlier in your answers, which was the migration to arbitrage. I want to kind of maybe understand the logic behind that and why you decided to make that move. And what's the move been like ever since?

14:26

Yeah, it's worked like a charm arbitrage is an amazing partner. We meet with them regularly just to talk about Yeah, our project. So any games looking to come? You know, not only will Nova and these Nova chains be fantastic, but just the team itself is incredibly responsive and just amazing technologists. But we decided like soon after arbitration launched where it was a practical thing at first, and then we just discovered it was sort of a happy accident, but initially If you had these treasure cards, and it was eight treasures to a card, I believe it's been so long now. And you had to fractionalize them, and then deposit them into our farm. And because we were fractionalized them into 720 ones every time you you know, seven 720 ones have unique token IDs. So transferring them creates, you have to do as a separate transaction is supposed to 155 what we changed when we got to our gym. So initially, like, at that time, since it was in the middle of the bull run, this was just prohibitively expensive, or extremely expensive for early community. Although this worked out really well, if people believed in the project, and we're willing to lose money on gas, they made it back like 100 or 200 fold, three or four months later, so I'm very happy for them, they just that was like, that was something like, cosmic, that was pretty beautiful. I'm really pleased for that, because we have a strong community. But it became clear like this isn't going to work. If we're going to build an on chain game economy, that means lots of transactions are going to be occurring. So we have to get to an L two, and we moved to we moved to arbitrage them. And at that time, they were doing about like $800 a day in volume. And we got it up when our marketplace only had two collections on it, but we were doing 10% of open seas volume on some days, we were the largest decentralized marketplace in the world ahead of xe until it looks rare. And then we were number two behind looks rare. But yeah, so when we moved to arbitrage, it was like we need to we need to give the users the ability to really cheaply transact these items, like to barter to, to meet new kinds of things. And we discovered this, but I think it's just like the future of where NFT's are going, you know, we've been in this era now where we've kind of been trading them like baseball cards, where they're very unique, extremely non fungible. But, you know, there is a version of an entity's it's a lot more fungible, and treasures being the best example of economic resources where, if you have a honeycomb, I have an income there, one to one, but that also be true for game skins, a lot of in game assets will have really large supplies, they won't be speculative, they'll just be utility based. And, you know, that's where the next that's where the next boom in NFT's is going to happen is these low cost high velocity items, and we're building defi tooling around them and worlds around them. And we think like, you know, this, I personally think that we're about to enter a phase of defy and nfts colliding in a very real way where people realize, oh, abort ape, like, there's no way you can build a winning protocol around that. Both because the supply is too small. And because the protocol doesn't own enough of its own liquidity to make sure that there's like a pool that can function is a reliable price feed. So that stuff like will probably just kind of spin off as novelty. And then the rise of gaming assets, where you can actually build liquidity pools around them. And then with raw, reliable price feeds, you can have lending protocols on top of them so much more sophisticated versions of acces scholarship model. So that's when we went to arbitrage. It was just, we were really small project. And as I mentioned, we were all volunteers. And now we've discovered like, oh, like everyone is going to move to L two for NF. T trading within like three years that just has to happen. Once l one congestion reaches a certain point and the way the NFT market is changing, like treasure is building the infrastructure that like all the successful high volume projects we'll be using. So yeah, it was definitely an accident. But we're extremely confident and in our model right now.

19:02

Nice, I'm glad things worked out for the best, then accidents are usually, surprisingly, sometimes a lot better than you expect. You talked about the economics part. And so I want to kind of touch on bridge worlds, because that is essentially the base economy layer for the entire ecosystem. Right. So could you walk us through that a bit more?

19:21

Yeah, so bridge world is where it all started. You know, when we were Aleut derivative, we were really hoping that loot was going to pick us up as their economy like these the economic resources, and they went a different direction. They picked a gold. And so we had these token holders, and a few holders and we're like, well, crap, we got to build a world around this. But the idea at the beginning when people farm magic was that hey, like lot of communities can come together and build a world around a single token. And that's like how worlds will interact is through resource struggles and trading rather than just purely through narrative. So the goal was to start building proof of concept meta versus to just demonstrate, hey, this is how you use magic. And here's how you can connect multiple worlds to through it. And so bridge rolled was the first one we created with these characters called legions. So legions initially, if you were a liquidity provider for magic, you could earn one. And then we built sort of like basic game loops around so legions could go out, discover treasures, craft them and summon new legions. But they were doing all these things just to acquire more magic. And now we've moved into this new phase called harvesters. And before if it was sort of a single player loop, I have my Legion, I'm trying to upgrade it, and just trying to earn more magic and treasures. Now, it's a game of social coordination where you have to create these harvester parts, and then watch them on to these machines, which are technically staking pools, but they're way too large for any single individual to make. So a group of people, guilds have to build these harvesters. And then it's as they as they add their assets to this, it can increase the extractive power of the harvester to earn more magic. And beyond that, it's not just pay to win. You know, we wanted to make a Metaverse where the community is actually inventing this, they invent the story. And it's just much more fair than decentralized finance, which ended up being as I mentioned, just the wealthiest person wins. So you can't just go to a staking pool or a harvester and just monopolize it, you have to actively maintain it. Because these parts will degrade over time. And yeah, we're just now taking this and the, the, there are like two two ways to think about this. The first is that, you know, we're trying to build an on chain economy with like, lots of game mechanisms that little games can sprout off of. So it's a world unto itself, and it'll get more and more complex where soon you'll you'll be able to, to harvest corruption points that you can actually levy against other people's harvesters. And then it turns into a game of, you know, other PFP communities or NFT, communities across crypto can come and challenge a particular harvester. And then for a period of time, they own the harvester and can start extracting magic. And we started doing this initially, with the goal of being like, Okay, we need to if we really want this to be across Metaverse, game economy, then magic has to circulate more across these worlds. And one way to do that is to create these sites of conflict. But then what this, you know, we just been, as the team, just thinking through like, Okay, how do we use these mechanisms? And the kind of amazing thing that the product lead for Bridgewater, The Economist came up with was, you know, okay, so these harvesters, they Bridgewater itself doesn't actually have to be a game, we've just created the format for a tournament of games. And what that means is that each harvester, you could think of, as the competition between two groups, two guilds, or maybe even more, and they could be fighting over particular games. So if someone else makes a game in web three, that's really successful and has

23:24

good social coordination aspect, then we could just plug that in to a harvester, and then their players can start earning magic through it, and their builders are aligned with our ecosystem. So it just becomes a cradle or like a video game console that other games can be put into. And, you know, we're working now with initial ecosystem partners to see who's a good fit for this, and just kind of slowly test it out. And yeah, over time, what this allows us to do is that, imagine if there's 30 harvesters and there's 30 games going on across the ecosystem, then some of those will be very successful, and so that we can just divert more and more magic to that some of them will be unsuccessful or fade away, as I mentioned earlier, so we simply just remove those from the rotation and slowly retire them in the least negative impact to the community, but that allows treasure just continue testing out what kind of organization do we want to be? What games do we think are most successful, whereas every other project and crypto is just barreling ahead? And if they're wrong about their game being any good, their project is dead? Whereas you know, we're immune to that, because we're an ecosystem of builders. And yeah, community members who are just testing things out.

24:41

I think since you mentioned the point about different community members testing things out and building. I want to ask you maybe specifically about some of the projects that excite you that are in the treasury ecosystem at the moment.

24:55

Yeah, so the beacon is one that was looking at avalanche And for those who haven't seen this, you have to go just check out the trailer. This is like a single player focused loop. But this will be high fidelity to game they've been working on for years. And I think it's just going to cross the chasm where traditional gamers is going to realize, oh, wow, this is amazing like this is, this isn't just a point and click thinking game. But it demonstrates all the best part of web three of interoperability of treasures, you know, the ability to own your game assets and take the work you've produced in this world and sell it. And then there's other games that are popping up in the community, tales of Illyria as another one that was looking for a blockchain and then their community, I think, voted or like strongly suggested to come to treasure. But this is like a, this is a really neat one, the the, the quality is fantastic. And so as the storytelling also recommended people check out that to the ether, which is this latest buyer sort of game. I remember it gets worse and worse, the older I get. Yeah, these are the big ones right now realm, sorry, is another one in the ecosystem. So this one was like one of the first partners and right now we have 50 plus projects that are been built by the community realm is as one of the, one of the most amazing ones just in terms of like the storytelling in the game, and also interoperability where they're finding ways for their community to build harvesters, and build what they call magic refineries to start earning more so so those are like the highlights right now. And as I mentioned, we haven't even existed as an organization for a full year. And so the community has built all of this. And then on the treasurer side, you know, bridge world, we're conceiving these days less of as a, as a game as more of just an on chain world that supports lots of different games. But we had a really successful year, volume wise, where we recouped a lot of our native tokens through the match through the marketplace that we were able to divest. And we're actually standing up in in house game studio right now. So we're working with a dowel called Strider, they all have two decades, or more of experience, like EA and riot. And they're finding developers that are leaving traditional gaming, having built triple A games. And they're going to come to treasure to build our first title, which will be called Smallville. And this will be a light hearted sandbox game similar to Stardew. Valley. Yeah, and that'll be the first of the games that we build with these developers. And as we earn more revenue, through our games, we will continue to invest into building the studio. So that hopefully, you know if we're talking, when we talk a year from now, there's dozens of people working on games inside the Dow.

28:06

Definitely tons of exciting ones. I mean, we try to Pending as many as we can on the on the space as well. But I highly suggest that you guys check out the rest of the titles mentioned. Since you mentioned, I think it was I can't quite remember which of the games but you mentioned one of them had the community vote on moving to treasurer. And so I wanted to kind of ask you directly in terms of like some of the proposals that you've seen, Treasurer das community essentially voting on? Could you maybe shed light on one or two, maybe the ones that stand out to you and in terms of like, the challenges because, you know, the Dow topic is a really hot topic, and a lot of people are for a lot or against. And so I want to kind of maybe get your perspective on the topic in terms of like a successful Dow and what that looks like and what that needs to look like, essentially.

28:50

Yeah. So on the tails of aleria thing, I'm not actually sure I was in one of the spaces where I think the community, maybe it was a twitter poll or something where they were kind of deciding where they should go. And people kind of overwhelming jumped up and like, go to arbitration and build alongside treasure build on treasure. And that's kind of how that came about. The Dow didn't vote because, you know, building on treasure, we can't stop anyone from doing it. I mean, we hope everyone incorporates magic to some extent. And it's sort of a permissionless world that way, you know, if you want to be part of what we're doing, then just use the magic token and Lincoln to these game mechanisms and economies we've built on chain, and it works. The Dow just censors you and doesn't put you on the marketplace, if it's like hateful or, you know, if they eventually decide on certain curation metrics, but it doesn't mean you can't participate in this economy. So yeah, that's kind of like how tales of Illyria ended up coming over most Sorry, what was the second part of your question?

29:54

I asked from your perspective then in terms of like community voting. Oh, that was meant to be run. Yep. Yeah, so

30:00

we're really lucky, we have a really fantastic community that I mentioned earlier, was long term oriented. And we saw that initially where, you know, worked out that we were asking people to farm, the 720 ones, they had to pay a lot in gas, because what ended up happening is our community dropped down to like 50 or 100 people maybe, who were willing to like show up every day make less than that. These people are still here. And they are in the discord, giving us thoughts on how to improve how to make the organization more sustainable. And there's basically no talk of like, you need to do this right now. So I can make more money. I mean, it's, it's, it's like, everything that's happened, really has been not only the community, just even Joel sizing the project on Twitter, because a lot of people just, you know, every project has that, but those people tend to leave in the price reach a certain point. But these people like see the five year 10 year vision are building it with us. So other dowels. Just to give a concrete example, you see something like urine, urine was a fair launch project like treasure that went even more meteoric. And their early adopters kind of ruined the project in a significant way early on, because they really didn't want they wanted this to be the Bitcoin of Defy. And so they were like, No, there's a max supply. And that's just how this is. And then the developers had to fight them and say, Hey, we actually need some skin in the game. But you know that that early unrest were the early adopters were extracting as much value for themselves as possible, really hurt the growth of that protocol. And then we've had the opposite, where there's been multiple situations where the community that got a ton of magic from farming early on, could have just put, just, you know, use their governance power to extract everything they could from this community and then dump their token. But they've done the opposite I can do. The three examples I can think of the first is that, for the majority of the first year, we had 5% royalties on our marketplace. So I think that's about like six months, as I mentioned, we've done about 300 million in volume. And the community was paying about 5%, most of that time, which is a significant haircut. But the people trading did that because they understood that they held this Dao token. And that's how the Dow was making money. The other example was that there's about 80% or so between 75 an 80% of magic that was locked up. And you could you could earn interest on doing this or earn more magic by locking it up, even up to a year. And this wasn't insane API. This wasn't like, you know, millions of percent, it was like less than 100% at a certain point. And they you know, the community you and a lot of this token rather than just manipulating the price upward and exiting their position, they actually walked it up for you know, API that's not ridiculous by crypto standards. And then like the third example was that we've had a proposal where the dowel voted to start diverting emissions away from bridge world into a grants program. And before that, before we iterated on, it decided, grants and harvesters and things like that we were actually just going to send a certain percent into other meta verses. But you know, if they were just totally self interested in short term thinkers, they would have said no to that, because it devalued their allegiance to some extent. But overwhelmingly, they saw that, no, the goal here is to grow the pie. And, yeah, the Treasury community is amazing. It's made up of a lot of like, really thoughtful participants that put us where we are today.

33:40

I think that's really inspiring. Because, yeah, like you said, there are a lot of struggles with Dows, where, essentially, people end up with almost having too much power with the community that doesn't necessarily go the right way. So it's great to see, I think, as an example, that Dows can indeed work and just has to work for the best, you know, scenario for the Dow itself, not just individuals in the Dow, I want to kind of maybe steer the conversation a bit more to present day, you know, the challenges that we're facing at the moment, the market sentiment and so on. Could you walk us through some of maybe your biggest challenges during a bear market, if any, because I tend to get very different responses when I when I ask people this question, but how's the market been treating you treasurer? And what's kind of the current ongoing processes? Or what are you guys up to now that, you know, the markets not super hot people are not talking about meta versus every single day? But obviously, there's still tons of people building behind the scenes.

34:34

Yeah, I mean, it's been fine for us. It's I like bear markets, it's quieter. People who are just there for the height tend to leave and you know, it, the community discussion is elevated. So in the early days, when we were a very unsuccessful, very small project, and we had a super thoughtful community talking, you know, in a lot of ways were returning to that on a bigger scale. But the quality of dialogue is going up and we can kind of build and, you know, I'm just convinced our thesis is correct that NFT trading, trading is moving to lto. We're exiting this era of people just flipping extremely non fungible collectibles. And it's going to be on chain economies built around fungible items, skins, game assets, treasures. And yeah, like, you know, we'll probably see weird stuff happening in the next couple years where people decide, you know, I don't want to trade an ERC 20, I'm going to trade an NFT is money, and I want to make a meme money. And you can't do that on that one. It's too expensive to transfer, single token IDs like that. So I'll tell you can do all kinds of cool stuff. And we're just continuing to innovate. We have enough runway for multiple years of our team, and we're still able to finance multimillion dollar deals to build an in house game studio on top of paying our current employees. So there are larger challenges where, you know, as I mentioned before, the arbitrage team couldn't be better at like helping us and building an amazing technology. But like treasure L two is very young. And so the there's significant friction, to bringing people to arbitration, and a lot of hand holding in the early days. And it's gotten better as the documentation improves. But yeah, I mean, most people don't know what layer two is they don't really know what arbitration is, it's really hard to get to arbitration. And we're building Fiat on ramp so. But we're okay with that, because we're playing a 10 year game and not a one year game. And there are a lot like, We are the they're the superior technologists, obviously, they're building this incredible roll up solution. But you know, they they are building something that is going to outlast all of the competition. And we're just going to be alongside them as their technology matures, and it's easier for people to onboard. But yeah, that realistically, that that's our biggest challenge right now is just bringing more people into the ecosystem.

37:20

So I mean, let me ask you this from a perspective of someone that speaks to games all the time, and obviously, we get asked the question, which chain to go to, and our bias is always towards, like, what adds the most value to the project? So if there is a project, let's say that is, I would say indifferent in terms of which chain they build on as long as the tech makes sense, what? Or how, or I guess, when is the right moment to start building or maybe consider your ecosystem instead of maybe any of the other competition? Because I'm really curious, because we do get this question a lot. And especially now, as people are looking at, you know, immutable people are looking at even altro in some cases, and obviously polygons a lot and BNB chain, but I'm really curious to hear in terms of like game devs, and game studios that are looking to build and are looking for essentially, an ecosystem and a chain, what's the right time? And how can they even get involved?

38:16

Yeah, I can go through without naming those other chains, I can kind of go through what I see is the advantage of arbitrage. Which is that, okay, first point is like, if you're a successful game, then your core game assets will start rising in price significantly. And you even though people like nouns, and l one collectors are the ones who think that they are, or that they don't think they are the ones who are collecting these things of significant value with the successful game, like some of your assets will start reaching the level where if there isn't very good security assumptions about your chain, it doesn't make any sense. And like, you have just sacrifice security for convenience to the point where there is like, no upward growth for this thing, because you'd be insane to keep a million dollar game item on a chain that's like can be shut down, and even rewritten, or just fall apart. And like a side chain can but a row up. You know, we're utilizing the security of Aetherium, but in much more cost effective ways. And so that's one is the security. And the second is that, like, you can actually build better versions of decentralized NFT trading and game trading on layer two. So right now in the treasure marketplace on arbitration, if you want to bid on an item, you're not like submitting this to some centralized server, that and then giving up your ability to execute the trade to some other contract you just put your bid on or not giving it up to some centralized entity you put your bid on to And then when we move forward, and as I mentioned, like we're moving into this era of NFT trading, where it's going to happen through liquidity pools, you can do routing between pools on chain. So l two is going to have better security than L one soon, because as the quantity of items that people are buying goes up. And the reliance on ln marketplaces on these centralized entities just to facilitate trading, like arbitrage will be better period, just in terms of decentralization, despite being on the roll up now, in terms of like, speed, and convenience, it definitely meets all of those criteria as well, if you go and look at like how much people are painting dass now, I think it's like, what the other night things like four or 5% flyer one, and it's only going to go lower. And arbitrary, creates the ability, which we're going to do with a treasure chain to make

40:55

almost like a layer three, or a polygon, like layer two. But you know, with polygon, I said I wasn't gonna name things. And then it's an amazing ecosystem. They have like grown and they picked a product market fit that worked really well. But you know, they have every kind of ecosystem on their chain. And it's going to, all these things are going to grow 100x to 1,000x, in terms of user adoption. So I just think that the future is probably a very app specific chain that is, you know, has something like a dowel that chooses what is taking up congestion on it. And a good example, I think people who pioneered this is where I work at osmosis, they had this vision for doing that for defy, but that's what will be true for gaming. So yeah, like, as this has reached a point of maturity, and there's the treasure chain, and we've built on our defi tooling. And our community, you know, we have this, we have this amazing community and we structured a game economy, a builder will come to us and they'll say, Okay, I want to use this because the technology is good, the infrastructure is good. You've created this economy where new builders can get new attention, not only by us tweeting about them, but we actually can send items between worlds and whitelist spots and just unique way of doing treasury and token swaps. For the team and community. That's where builders are going to want to go. And the last point I was going to make is that, you know, we're exiting this era and NFT's where if your project fails, your community will hunt you and make you work on it for the rest of your life, which is on which is unreasonable. Because projects fail all the time innovators, you're not going to succeed and you're gone, you're going to want to be part of an ecosystem moving forward. Because if a Nintendo title fails, it's not like the end of Nintendo. It's just you move on. And hopefully, you you the organization is continuing to earn enough revenue to power itself. And that's what our dowel does. So it insulates builders from this, these unrealistic expectations the community where they don't even want to try and innovate. Because if they fail, that's that's it for them as a builder, and you know, this race to the bottom for royalties. People need to be used to be insulated by an ecosystem where they can incentivize their user through in game perks and marketplace perks to just continue paying the builders. So yeah, I mean, we were very lucky to launch at a time when an ecosystem like ours could take flight. But going forward, you either have to build that ecosystem from scratch, or you have to join something like ours, because the days of like isolated builders and projects is pretty much over for gaming.

43:44

No, I think that's a very fair answer. I know you tried not not mentioning means there was a key to drop one or two, I think it's definitely an interesting conversation. And obviously, as we continue to, you know, grow in the space, I think we have three gaming in general and all projects that are looking to build, it's gonna be a much more compelling argument for an ecosystem that can really provide all that value and not just like the basic tech, because I feel like there's there's so much more competition, especially with a lot of people, you know, targeting whether it's grant funds, added kind of user bases through partnerships and things like that. So, solid answer. I do have one more question. But before I let you kind of tell us a bit more about treasure data's future plans. I did want to mention for everyone listening and thank you so much, obviously for sticking around until the very end. The as promised the oath, the origin of human token, the NFT that you can claim for attending today's session is already linked up in the space. And it's only fitting that we put the secret code as magic so that's ma GIC magic. I'll say that one more time. Ma GIC magic. So, John, back to you in terms of treasure, Tao and treasures, I guess future plans. Could you tell us really quickly what can we look forward too, because I do also want want to get you to do an outro. For us, I tend to play around with guests and ask them to wrap up the show and see who's got the best outro. So we can maybe use it in future episodes. But first tell me future plans. And then we'll do a nice quick little outro. And I'll wrap things up for you. Sounds good.

45:18

Yeah, absolutely. So the one year plans would be for Smallville, which is going to be our high fidelity game we're producing with our internal studio, so producing this first title, continuing to grow the number of developers building infrastructure through the marketplace, AR hmm. And then blending those two to provide defy tooling to other games. And we're going to build daps, using the innovations we've made. No bridge world was a big experimentation in novel ways to distribute NFT's to value them and allow people to farm with them. So we're going to turn our Metaverse into infrastructure that any any other builder can use. And then the last piece is just to continue growing the ecosystem, not by providing tooling to people but you know, through grants through composability. So building more frameworks that other builders can use in terms of, you know, NFT contracts that are, as I mentioned before, not just ready to go, but they actually interact with the entire ecosystem off the bat. So yeah, those are the big things growing the Dow internally growing the Dow externally through partnerships and grants, and then providing more tooling for, for this ecosystem to just grow without our involvement.

46:42

Yeah, I think tons to look forward to. So I'll let you wrap things up for us. But first, let me just remind everyone that if you tuned in a bit too late and you were starting a conversation, you definitely missed one of our best episodes, I think I genuinely enjoyed this most because it's it's like every single answer has got you so much more information about stuff that is definitely going to change, I think the way we think about just the ecosystem in general, but also like the gaming and so on, but if you didn't miss the episode, or if you joined in late, feel free to check it out on all platforms, podcast platforms, such as Spotify, Apple, and obviously Google podcasts. With that being said, John, thank you so much for joining us, I want you to kind of just give us maybe your parting thoughts. It could be treasure related or not. But I want you to kind of wrap things up for us. And we'll call it a day.

47:25

Yeah, well, thank you for having me on. I appreciate those kind words, I just, I guess I would say to people who haven't heard of our ecosystem before, you know, we were a fair launch project, we did this, for love of the game, everything was given away for free. And if this is an ethos that like appeals to you, the vision for magic is that it should go to the communities, the projects and games that are the strongest over time. And we want to make things where other people can come in and build alongside us. And the goal isn't just to make like this ecosystem bigger. We want to compete with companies and business models in the real world that have hurt artists and game developers and even gamers. So we're building what we think of as an economic Vanguard, where we're not only just making things that the community builds and owns, we're competing with the largest, the largest organizations in the world, to do this in a truly web three native way. So if that's something that appeals to you, you know, we'd love for you to come into the ecosystem and use your imagination to find ways to grow this together.

48:31

That's the way that once you're done. Thank you so much for that. And again, once again, thank you for sticking around to all our listeners. And I think with that we'll wrap things up. Super excited for everything treasure still has to offer. And we're still yet to see. But John, thanks so much for joining.

48:45

Thank you

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